Butch dismissal
I talked a bit about femme invisibility, and some of that was to offer a little of my opinion, but mostly it was to get your perspectives. I’m not femme, so I don’t necessarily feel qualified to offer anecdotal support. But on the subject of butch dismissal, I feel qualified.
I know – butch dismissal? I’ve read plenty about the concept of butch privilege and visibility; I know, I don’t often have to come out to anyone. Many times, it’s pretty much assumed that I’m gay based on how I look or how I behave (how do you think I got the name of my blog?). I’ve never had to put up with negative reactions from people because I’m butch; most negativity has been simply because I’m gay in the first place. But honestly? Sometimes being visible feels like shit because it’s easier to see where I don’t seem to fit in within my own community.
It really doesn’t bother me to get dismissed by the hetero crowd – maybe because I half expect it? But it also doesn’t happen that much to me, and maybe I just don’t care if they dismiss me or not. Sometimes it seems that perhaps they don’t understand some of the intricacies of the gay community, but for the most part, they’re willing to ask and to learn. I have straight male friends who serve as my wingmen (or vice versa), so there’s even a bit of camaraderie there. Now, I’ve had to explain to some straight female friends that yes, feminine lesbians are attracted to butches. My friend D told me that as a hetero woman who considers herself “feminine and sexy,” she assumed that all women would naturally be attracted to that – feminine and sexy. When I told her that some lesbians find the butch look and energy a turn-on, she didn’t personally understand the attraction, but she understood the potential for it. She comes from the whole “if a woman wants to be with someone who is masculine, why wouldn’t she be with a man?” school of thought, but now she realizes how much that perception was grounded in her own experience. So with my hetero friends, I do a lot of educating when I have the opportunity, but once it’s explained? We’re good.
However, when I go out with my lesbian friends, it’s a different story. None of the women in the circles of friends that I have identify as butch or are attracted to butches. Oh, there are a few tweeners, a few who lean more toward the masculine rather than the feminine, but that’s really it. I’m pretty much the only butch. This makes things interesting when my friends invite me to parties or try to set me up with women. I get strange looks at the women’s club here (except for that one lady), whether it’s when I’m in line for the bathroom or at the bar buying drinks. Many times I’ve actually been more comfortable at men’s and straight bars. Fair or not, I kind of expect (or hope) women in the lesbian community here to understand the butch-femme dynamic. Some women have told me it’s old-fashioned. Others have said femme women just don’t want someone who is “really butch” anymore; in fact, femmes don’t want someone who is too manly, and aren’t butches just trying to be guys, anyway?
It doesn’t just happen in person. I’ve seen many personal ads from women specifically stating “no butches,” including the one I saw from someone who wanted “someone attractive and stylish, so no butches please.” As if to say style and sexiness couldn’t possibly exist in a butch.
To all of this, I simply say – what the hell?
Now, let me be clear. I’m not looking for sympathy or validation by bemoaning the fact that some women aren’t attracted to butches (uh, I’m not). I’m not upset that some women don’t want to date us. That is completely valid, and far be it for me to judge what a woman wants; we all just like what we like, right? My concern is regarding some of the perceived attitudes I see toward butches. I realize femmes who are attracted to butches may be in somewhat short supply, but does that mean the whole concept of it has to take a beating? A femme’s attraction to a butch doesn’t make her any less lesbian because she’s attracted to masculine traits, and my masculine traits don’t make me any less of a woman. As my friend Rebecca said, as much as femmes are sometimes inaccurately portrayed as wanting to be like straight girls, maybe butches are portrayed as wanting to be like straight guys. (Also, h/t to her for helping me get my brain on track with this post.) In a community of women, maybe that doesn’t always go over so well.
That sucks, because aren’t we all queer in our own way? At the end of the day, that’s what should bring us together. I don’t always expect the general straight population to get it, but feeling like I have to fight stereotypes from within my own community is both frustrating and disheartening.
December 14th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Great topic and insights. Our community can be just a guilty of being judgemental and stereotyping as the straight community. I have even felt disregarded because I am somehow not “butch enough”. Not sure who is in charge of setting the rules but you would think that we would know better.
December 14th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
[...] This post was Twitted by sarahrosehurt [...]
December 14th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
I will definitely be writing a long response/tag-team blog on this one. Well put G, well put!
December 14th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
I guess it’s the extreme – anyone not squarely in the center tends to be marginalized. Because they’re, uh, on the margins.
And now I’m picturing a bunch of lesbians running around like a herd of sheep, all trying to stay with the group. That’ll do, pig.
December 21st, 2009 at 9:39 pm
Rebecca: Thanks, Babe.
December 14th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
i see the “no butch” posts a lot in personal ads.. just did a quick search for “butch” in nyc w4m and got this, ha! :
“If I say I want a woman, why would I want her to f$ck me like a man? And don’t even get me started on the suckin of a strap on, are you kidding me? Maybe I’m missing something…
And while I’m at it, I don’t understand the attraction to so called studs/butch/dikes, whateva term you wanna use…sure you’ve heard it many times before, but why not get a real man if you want someone that walk, talks and acts like one? I would think that a large part of the reason most of us are attracted to women is because of our femininity, so the whole stud thing just doesn’t make sense to me
I know some of you are gonna jump all over me, but I’m honestly not trying to offend, if I did I apologize, I’m just genuinely confused”
December 21st, 2009 at 9:05 pm
Pinky: I’d like to call that Exhibit A.
December 14th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
i mean w4w!
oops, typo :)
December 14th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
I hear you. For sure. And thanks for writing about this too. There’s been a lot of blog-talk lately about femme identity (thanks largely to you!) so let’s get talking butch!
December 14th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Well said, G!
I like women in general… butch, femme, sporty, punk… women… w.o.m.e.n… I find beauty with every woman – no matter what their style is.
When I was single and looking I wasn’t looking for a certain type of lesbian, I was looking for a woman with the personality traits that I enjoy. I happened to find that with Holly who on the outside looks butch but on the inside is all femme!
To each their own! Don’t hate, appreciate!
December 14th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
Kerap.
Now I may have to tag team this one too.
Well put, brother. All thought provoking and stuff.
December 14th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
I wish there were a better way to explain how much I (as a femme woman) love butch women. I love nothing more than seeing a woman rock some androgyny.
I loved this post!
Also, great reference Rebecca!
December 14th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
Hi there G. Just wanted to say great post — thanks for tackling this.
December 14th, 2009 at 9:03 pm
I wonder if the reason straight people are more open to being educated about being butch than other lesbians is because the other lesbians just assume they already know all about it just by virtue of being gay. Of course there is also the more troubling aspect of queers trying to police their own and whitewash and normalize queer experiences. That’s something I’ll have to think about. In any case, I’m glad you wrote about this as it’s something I wasn’t totally aware of before.
December 21st, 2009 at 9:21 pm
Sabayon: I think that’s a good point. It’s not that my straight friends haven’t had their fair share of miscues when it comes to understanding the gay community, but quite often, they were genuinely ignorant/confused about something. I’m certainly hoping it’s not a trend of policing, as you put it.
December 14th, 2009 at 10:05 pm
Have you seen this?
Btw I’m a femme way into the butches. Especially someone with the gall to self-identify as such.
December 14th, 2009 at 11:01 pm
this is a great post. very well said, my friend.
as a femme who likes butches, i think i sometimes just automatically assume that all femmes like butches. that whole yin and yang thing. while i obvsly know this isn’t true, it just tends to be my natural first thought.
i have a few butch friends and i’ve never second guessed them or thought them any less of a woman for how they present themselves and the energy they emit. it seems “old school” for people to just assume that butch=want to be a man. yet, i realize so many people still have that mindset.
part of me wonders if regional location plays into this? i’m definitely going to ask my butch friends their take on this.
thanks for the thought provoking post!
December 15th, 2009 at 4:09 am
The whole butch / femme / how you identify as a lesbian dynamic is just so intricate, I think I’ll never understand every nuance. Its a sensitive issue, and one people are sometimes loathe to approach – so thank you for this post. I’m genuinely interested in what you have to say and learning more.
I don’t have a ‘type’ I’m attracted to, for me that would be too limiting. Its already challenging, finding someone that ticks at least some of the boxes.
I could care less if you wear heels or shave your head, as long as I think your brain is hot!
December 15th, 2009 at 4:14 am
I always thought this was a regional issue – butches being less accepted in the West where men are men and women are women and there are much more clearly defined sex roles? Perhaps not though since I see some “no butches” lines in w4w ads here on the East Coast now too.
As always, thought provoking stuff. I feel like this blog is a bit like the John Malkovich movie about his brain – I get a glimpse of the inner workings of something amazing through it.
December 15th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
Blowing you a kiss in solidarity, G!
http://sublimefemme.wordpress.com/2009/12/15/butch-positive/
xo
SF
December 21st, 2009 at 9:24 pm
SF: I really appreciated that post. Again, thank you!
December 15th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Wow…irony, thy name is “posts about the butch-femme dynamic.” I JUST wrote a post called “The Ick Factor” today as a response to a MicroFantasy Monday assignment we had on role reversal. I did the MFM but found myself totally repulsed by the thought of the actuality of it. I am yes, old school femme who only wants old-school butch. Is it a generational thing? I don’t want a man (although my ex started transitioning after we began dating and I was okay with that…but had he not been looking online for a woman AS a woman, we’d have never met), but I do want my women to be strong, handsome, chivalrous, protective, and have that cocky attitude that only butches seem to have. And yes, they must prefer high femmes like me. :) Excellent post!
December 21st, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Scintellectual: I’m not sure if it’s a generational thing or not. I’ve wondered that myself, but I’ve found that people (gay or straight, male or female) from the younger generations either embrace all genders and variations thereof, or they subscribe to The L Word concept, in which all lesbians should be feminine and glam. I’m not sure what shapes their perceptions either way.
December 15th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
oh, i think sabayon is right on about this. queers like to think that queer is inherently subversive. like somehow fucking women makes me inherently alternative so my statements can no longer be offensive, thoughtless, mean or mainstream. well.
i’m considering the “but i’ll *never* get knocked up this way” excuse when i haven’t the energy to explain what i so love about butches. though i so love so many things about so many sorts of people.
December 16th, 2009 at 7:37 am
Great post, I love this blog! I’ve been out for less than a year and am just learning the dynamics of the lesbian community, but it didn’t take me long to feel a “prejudice” against masculine butches. At first I tried to keep a bit of a feminine look and attitude, but pretending to be a type of lesbian I’m not is just as bad as pretending to be strait. I have zero desire to be a man, but I love my short hair, I love working out, and I can’t stand the sight of myself in girly clothes. I hope the lesbians I meet can get that and accept me for who I am.
December 17th, 2009 at 11:33 am
Is it fighting stereotypes or is it that people are unable to embrace diversity? We do have a varied amount of diversity within the lesbian group but come on, we’re talking about women. All of them delicious in their own way too. I can understand why some types are more attractive to others. I know that femmes tickle me in a way that dykes and butches miss completely. Yet I enjoy my dyke and butch friend’s comradely. As a butch I never felt a wanting to be a guy, in fact, people calling me sir use to annoy the crap out of me. But I’m much more comfortable wearing the guys khakis and shirts than I am in any woman’s clothing. Old fashion? Gosh I hope not and I hope there will always be a place for the current queer lesbian varieties as well as the new ones that will be evolving. For now though, be assured I will proudly continue to display butch chivalry to my Wife while straight women look on with envious eyes.
December 21st, 2009 at 9:33 pm
Jude: I can definitely understand certain attractions, and I respect everyone’s right to be attracted to whomever they want. That’s why I tried to leave attraction out of the equation and just talk about the dismissive behavior towards butches, which is the disturbing part to me.
In the meantime, keep rocking the chivalry to the missus, you badass.
December 18th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
If you wanted an excuse to come and visit us, sugar, you could have just said so. ;)
I’m teasing. I know this is very serious and all, but as a femme who appreciates all queer culminations and can’t see the sense in spewing all kinds of jaywords and haterade around, it is just too hard to take this seriously.
Anyway, just come visit. You can restore your faith in lesbianity by letting us haul you from one butch-laden party to another (with a goldmine of butch-lovin’ femmes present, of course).
You and M can compare cufflinks and bow ties!
December 21st, 2009 at 9:37 pm
SBJ: Cufflinks, bow ties, and butch-lovin’ femmes? I’m there.
December 22nd, 2009 at 2:45 am
I’m a bit late on the subject again (should really check my feedreader more often). can’t believe ppl are so stupid. butches are awesome, I love the whole vibe and it’s a pity not more women can appreciate that.
I conclude, however, that there are quite some issues in the lesbian community. butches have it hard, femmes have it hard and so do we undefined ones. something’s wrong with that. which I say in a lot more words here: http://queersome.wordpress.com/2009/12/22/58/ :)
December 28th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
McC: Thanks for the link! I’m happy to see you blogging again. I kind of replied on your blog instead of here.
December 26th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Great post! I read you from Spain, and here we don’t have a butch-femme culture as such, but in personal ads is common to read “feminine looks similar” or “only feminine girls”. As you, I don’t have nothing against people’s erotic preferences, but it’s sad to see that androginy is always dismissed in our current lesbian culture.
By the way, someday I’d like you to write about the butch-on-butch problem. Maybe not exactly a dismissal, maybe it’s just we are so few, but I think we are normally less understood that any other kind of lesbian relationship.
December 28th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
Kali: Hola! Thanks for commenting and for the post suggestion. I don’t have experience dating butches, but I can certainly offer a perspective. Come back soon!
January 14th, 2010 at 5:09 pm
I know I’m terribly late to the party, but I had to comment. I am, by all definitions, a femme. I also crave, desire, starve for, can’t stop looking at, am endlessly attacted to and crazy in love with my butch (and butches in general, from boi to stone). The butch/femme dynamic is HOT, and one I see as distinctly queer, rather than mimicking heterosexuality. Hot. Very hot.
January 14th, 2010 at 11:11 pm
Heather: Late to the party or not, you’re always welcome in this space. Maybe I’m biased, but I like butch-friendly visitors.
January 15th, 2010 at 4:40 pm
Well, your blog is delicious, so thank you. Maybe I’ll de-lurk more often. :]
January 18th, 2010 at 3:15 pm
I was at a party not too long ago where a gay guy started butch-bashing. It stopped pretty quick when I looked all misty-eyed and practically drooled on the table to say his description was SO HOT (okay, there was no drool, but there were misty-eyes). I was surprised to see it in anyone gay, though, even though I know it shouldn’t be.
Keep looking! I have a personals site that says “Butches please!” And somehow keep getting emails from femmes asking if they can be the exception… *shakes head*
J
May 10th, 2010 at 6:33 pm
Totally late comment on this, but I just found your blog from a link somewhere else and have been surfing around, and this cracks me up–here in Seattle, it seems like no one is into butch/femme. It’s all butch/butch these days (well, boi on boi, hardly anyone identifies as butch anymore!)
May 11th, 2010 at 9:40 pm
Meara: It feels sometimes like butches are an endangered species. Sadface. And I think the number of those who are into the butch-femme dynamic are even fewer. Bigger sadface. Thanks for your comment.